released 5/24/2019

The common assumption that “sacred” and “secular” define two mutually exclusive spheres of life is a destructive obstacle to the pursuit of true human flourishing. It is an expression of a dualism that separates the material world from the spiritual, and the natural from the supernatural. Among other results, this dualism eliminates any principled limits on the exercise of power by government. Andrew Willard Jones’s book, Before Church and State, examines a medieval alternative to the modern paradigm, and reveals how strange the modern Western view is. In this extended interview with Ken Myers, he summarizes what he learned about possibilities for social harmony by “visiting” thirteenth-century France.

Before the interview with Jones are brief excerpts from other interviews in which the philosophical and theological assumptions behind the “sacred-secular” divide are questioned. Voices heard are Michael Sandel, David L. Schindler, Jean Bethke Elshtain, and John Milbank.

61 minutes

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